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The official Auroracoin discussion board

Proposal: we rethink everything

Umræður um hvernig er hægt að ná til fyrirtækja og almennings á Íslandi
- Discussion on how we can reach the people and merchants of Iceland

by Bimmerhead » 19 Jan 2016 18:05

Ok not 'everything', but I did get your attention, didn't I?

Instead of trying to get Icelanders to adopt Auroracoin, perhaps we should ask them to adopt 'a quicker, cheaper payment method'.

With the exchange in place and PoS tools widely available, we are in a position to offer retailers (nearly) fee-free transactions priced and settled in krona. The merchant doesn't need to price in, or accept Auroracoin, yet the customer can pay using Auroracoin. As soon as payment is received, it is converted back to krona. Furthermore, the customer doesn't even need to know he is paying in Auroracoin. He can load up his smartphone wallet with Auroracoin that he has bought with krona, not even knowing he is buying Auroracoin. Best of all, this can all happen at the point of purchase thus almost eliminating exchange risk.

Now, this isn't the goal. The goal is people transacting and holding Auroracoin without changing back to fiat. This is just a step towards the goal. Now you have 1)merchants who accept AUR because it is fee-free and 2)consumers who use AUR because it is convenient (on their phone). Additionally, they may be incentivized by merchants to pay with AUR because of the no fees. Again, however, people don't even need to know they are using AUR. They think they are simply using another payment method. Like VISA, Mastercard, whatever. In fact I'd suggest the word Auroracoin not even be used. The whole system could be marketed as eKrona or something equally innocuous. This could be promoted by a separate company that uses the AUR-ISK exchange to handle the backend, and is devoted to acceptance and marketing on the front end.

So now we have a situation where there is widespread acceptance and use of Auroracoin, even though nobody knows they are actually using it. Now trust can be established. We are creating a track record of reliable, low-cost, convenient processing. We are hopefully also seeing a rise in the value of Auroracoin as its utility and acceptance is being demonstrated worldwide. As Auroracoin increases in value vs fiat, some people will feel incentivized to hold Auroracoin rather than convert back and forth at transaction time. This too will serve to increase the value of Auroracoin. Now we have a virtuous circle happening, and Auroracoin begins to displace fiat.
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by LTEX » 19 Jan 2016 20:32

I think that once we have the exchange up and running this is exactly what we need to pursue! We already have some code in place to generate a serviceprovider that tackles this!
A fool will only look at the finger, even if it points to paradise!
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by Polarbear » 19 Jan 2016 21:06

this can be done with programming through the AUR-ISK exchange API. Best selling point will be pointing out to people that when using this technology, you are free from the transaction fee (færslugjald) that is 17 isk for every transaction you make with the card! And this will free the merchant from transaction fees too.
On the other hand, people must be aware of the potential drawbacks... i.e. every transaction is final and irreversible through the system... and the program must be *very* well tested and secured to prevent hacking and misuse. And this will be replacing the debit card transactions only (i.e. you must have funds on the exhange account for this to work).

this will never replace a full functional android/ios AUR wallet... that must be available too if AUR is to gain some foothold.
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by Bimmerhead » 19 Jan 2016 21:23

Are you saying in Iceland the customer pays a transaction fee?
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by Polarbear » 19 Jan 2016 22:00

yes. for a debit card, the user (owner of the card) pays 17 icelandic króna every time he swipes the card. this is called "Færslugjald" in icelandic... transaction fee. this is usually summed up and charged to the bank account linked to the card once a month. During a typical year, if you use the card 4 times a day on average, you pay around 25.000 isk in transaction fees alone. Other charges apply, such as card-creation fee (varies between banks, from 0 to 3.000 isk), yearly allowance fee (unrelated to use), around 500-5.000, varies between banks)....

For credit cards though, the card owner does not pay transaction fees, but the merchant pays a percentage fee of the transaction amount plus a fixed cost for the agreement with the card-handling company (we have four, Borgun, VALITOR, Korta and one more i can´t remember).

icelandic monetary system is full of shit like this. for example, if you have a loan (god forbid) and you pay monthly of the loan, you pay certain amount of the initial loan (höfuðstóll, don´t know the english word), then the interest (vextir)... and then a strange fee just for paying, called greiðslugjald (payment fee). that is typically 250-500 isk *per payment*... even though you do this totally through the online banking website and decline the paper bill you used to get before online banking became available....

and don´t even get me started on the Verðtrygging (indexation).... :evil:
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by Soltantgris » 20 Jan 2016 13:11

Craig, with the idea of somewhat hidding AUR within a payment processing method, I think we hide one of the better selling point Polarbear just pointed it out : Aur as a way to get rid of fiat manipulations and banking behavior. It's a tricky subject (you don't want to creative powerful enemy, but in same time this is trully what it is, and for me it's the strongest Aur point). I am not in to save processing fees. This is collateral bonus. I know merchands and people will enjoy the saving, but the volatility of market, the security flaws etc are not compensated by the 17 isk saved per transaction.

Reality is (from my standpoint), by accepting/using AUR :

- You support an alternative to controlled and centralized fiat.

- You say ''IT'S ENOUGHT'' !

- You are ''up to date'' with technology progress.

- You save fees.

- Unless fiat money, there is a strong possibility that your AUR will gain a lot of value if used mainstraim in iceland, so you have another strong incentive to share around, to support, to develop around.

People have to know at first that they are taking a risk. It's not ''investment'' - but somewhat it is. You invest in a better economy, both personnal and global. Last thing I would want is Hermann/Petur/Hlynur selling AUR as a payment method, then the network collapse and they are pointed out with criminal charges etc.

++++++++

My approach would be in line with these points.

1) Launch exchange, new code, new payment processor, and use icelandic coverage to point to Aur websites. Such website would explain pretty clearly ''what-why-how'' with article, videos, forums.

2) Share it all outside Iceland with paid press release, paid social media news services, + our own channels.

3) Would invite all interested icelandic people to join Aur Foundation right away from this buzz.

4) Manpower.

5) Would start right away a huge icelandic and internatinal campaign around the theme ''Bring back Aur to iceland'' and ''Export iceland'', that is, using Foundation fund to offer some incentive for merchands to sell goods to foreigners for AUR. Iceland is ''cool'' for most foreigners - and there is some good local product people would be happy to pay AUR for. So merchand would sell stuff, foreigners would get stuff, and AUR would slowly get back to iceland. Would have a collateral bonus, AUR would be more available in iceland (good for use) and less outside (good for price).

6) Conferences + Foundation meeting. Hlynur/Petur/Hermann should set some conference right away, getting the best out of the newly created awareness. ''How to use Aur'', ''Why to use Aur''. ''How to get involved''. ''What are the risks''. Etc. Informal and interactive conferences, on top of Foundation meeting with people wanting to be part of the journey.

7) Outside iceland, information control throught our channels. Sharing links (icelandic coverage, conference, website article, videos, etc). Getting people involved (slack groups, forum). Action will come by itself.

What Craig propose would be great but would need millions of funding to get a good and secure network (ripple lab like). I would rather push the ideology of AUR instead of technology of AUR.
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by Bimmerhead » 20 Jan 2016 13:20

Solantgris, I think WE agree as to why we want AUR in Iceland. But I don't believe the average Icelander cares enough, understands enough, or is ideological enough to adopt a new currency for the reasons you've outlined.

I've been involved in politics for over 20 years and what I've seen is that only a minority of the population votes based on policy. LOTS of people vote on "what's in it for me". Few people will support something because it is better for everybody else in the long run. They want to see personal benefit.

That's why I think the only way to get to OUR long-term goal, is to help them reach their short-term goal.

But in any event I don't want this discussion to divert our attention from the piles of work that needs to be done before either of these approaches happens. Lots of foundational stuff still needs to happen in either event.
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by Soltantgris » 20 Jan 2016 14:08

Just for discussion purpose, how would you see it, from a technical standpoint ? Is it already-made solution out there that would allow a secure way to use AUR the way you propose ?
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by Bimmerhead » 20 Jan 2016 14:55

There are solutions like Coinkite out there. Of course any solution is going to have to be integrated with ISX.is.

And we still need to get Android, iOS or web wallets up and running once the new algo is in place.
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by Skarfurinn » 28 Jan 2016 11:32

I think this is absolutely not the way to go with Auroracoin. This might however be the way people are trying to get Bitcoin adopted as it's going for world adoption.

Auroracoin on the other hand should not be hidden and I'll tell you why.

The nations current mentality. People here are so fed up with the "system" and when I say that I mean both the old politics and the current monetary system and the corruption that follows it. I know that everyone in the world has had enough of the current system but here in Iceland the feeling is that things could get to a boiling point again at any time. It might seem like people are just going on with their lives as usual but nobody has forgotten the crash here in 2008. People are now sitting at home watching the same system building up again without a single change. They sit at home angry and watch it because they don't know what they can do about it.

Now the currently smallest political party in congress Pirate party (Píratar) with 3 members from 5.1% votes in last election are measuring now to be the biggest political party in Iceland with close to 42% following. The simple reason behind that is because people here think they can make actual changes to the system rather than just proposing to run the current system a bit differently than the next party. So people are using the little power given to them to try and force a change to the "system".

This is what Auroracoin can bring to people as well. Educating people about the exact problems of the current monetary system (they know it's broken, just don't know how it works) and then explain to them how Auroracoin (or crypto in general) addresses these problems. You show people that they have an option, that they don't just have to sit at home watch the current monetary system build up the same way as before and wait to get violated by it again. That they are now being presented with the opportunity to act and matter in the whole thing and I believe a lot of people will for the same reason the Pirate party is measured with 42% following today.

This is by far the biggest reason why Auroracoin can succeed in Iceland and I think that hiding this from the public here would be a huge mistake that would lead to failure. People don't need a new payment system. They need to be free of the current fractional reserve ponzi scheme that has enslaved them (sounds dramatic but true none the less).

My two cents.
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by Bimmerhead » 28 Jan 2016 14:51

I would certainly defer to your opinion on this. You're on the ground in Iceland and have a much better sense of what the people are thinking.

I'm still skeptical that a huge number of people are truly informed on these issues though. I note that even the Pirate Party itself, at least on various Wiki links, talks a whole lot more about democracy than they do about freedom or property rights. This leads me to believe they are more about forced redistribution of wealth than creation of wealth. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The good thing is, if the persuasion approach fails, we can always try the "low cost transactions" approach later.
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by Skarfurinn » 28 Jan 2016 16:33

I can understand your scepticism but in my opinion your perception of the Pirate party could not be more wrong. Actually they have openly been very pro cryptocurrencies or shall I say "side currencies" as they like to call it. They want to plow the way for alternative currencies as well as full reserve system. This party is new (founded around protesters from the last crash) and attracts activists and anarchists along with others that just simply believe that we can do things differently. I'm pretty confident when I say that there is nobody there on the grounds of financial gain. They are plainly different from all other traditional parties that we have here and that is why they are getting this large following. Will they succeed in changing things, I don't know and is beside the point. My point was that they are getting this following because of the peoples demand for change and that is what Auroracoin can offer people as well.

Introducing cryptocurrencies as a better / simpler / cheaper payment system to anyone is in my opinion useless as I think that those are things that people don't really care about. People are not complaining about expensive transactions (merchants might consider this), neither are they calling out for a easier or better way to pay for things. It's pretty simple as it is.

Bitcoin wasn't designed to be a simple way of paying for things or cheap payments. It was designed as a decentralised monetary system with a fixed unchangeable money supply to eliminate corruption in the creation of funds. Cheap payments is just a side feature that isn't even a guaranteed as that can be changed with fees. It certainly is not easier for people to use than their plastic cards nor does it offer people more safety as they are responsible to securing their funds themselves.

When you say you have your doubts about people being truly being informed about these things you are correct. People are not very informed about what the problem is with the current monetary system as they don't really understand how money is made and if you would tell them they would have a hard time accepting that such a system exists and legal at that. So this is why we need to inform them about this. How can you get someone to use cryptocurrencies if he doesn't understand the problems that it's addressing? That in my mind is a key element. I've talked to a lot of people about cryptocurrencies and they all don't give a damn until I explain how they are being robbed every day by the current system. Then I get their attention and they understand what cryptocurrencies do for us.

Wow.. this was a long rant about a simple thing. What can I say, I got rolling and couldn't stop :)
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by Bimmerhead » 28 Jan 2016 16:40

Ok I'm convinced.

Now let's make it happen... soon!!!
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